Here’s some comparison:
- In both USA and china you can’t buy a ticket to a fast train if you’re credit score is bad. In china there is direct ban, in USA there is no fast Train.
- In china, this also applies to flight tickets. Basically if you have bad social credit, you are kinda fucked in almost anything in china including apointment to government services. USA it’s mostly tied to taking new loans or getting a new house or renting an apartment (?). Does not have actual effect on your ability to purchase flight tickets.
- In China they can check your phone (for images) and your online activity is quite accessible to the government. The checks can happen not only in international borders but also in inter regional borders. In USA, i know it’s a thing for foreigners during entrance to USA, not sure how is it for the citizens.
- In China you have to give away all your data (as a company), regardless of where that data is stored, if the government or the communist party requests it. They are technically different entities but practically the same entity. Failure to do so will fuck up your social credit. In USA you also have to hand over all your data (as a company) if the government asks regardless of where it is stored (since the CLOUD act), but hey at least you’re not handing over to the commies and it will probably not have any effect on your credit score.
- In china there is an app that notifies people of other people with poor social credit so they can generally avoid them. USA hasn’t invented that YET, although people from other political party are usually considered subhuman and beneath themselves and someone is looking.
This comparison mixes a few real policies with a lot of exaggeration. For example, the train and flight issue people always bring up is not about having a vague “bad social credit score.” What actually exists is a court enforcement measure. If someone refuses to comply with an effective court judgment (most commonly paying a debt or damages) the court can place them on the judgment-defaulter list (失信被执行人) and issue a high-consumption restriction (限制高消费). That mainly blocks luxury consumption like flights, first-class rail seats, and luxury hotels until the court order is fulfilled. The purpose is simply to pressure people to comply with the judgment and protect the creditor’s rights (why should sleazy business people who don’t pay their debts get to live lavishly).
Because of that, the claim that “if you have bad social credit you’re basically locked out of everything” is misleading. These restrictions target specific high-end consumption, not normal daily life. Even Chinese legal explanations make clear that they are meant to restrict non-essential spending such as flying, luxury hotels, expensive travel, etc., rather than basic living or ordinary transportation.
The surveillance point is also mixing separate issues. China does have strong state monitoring powers and extensive digital infrastructure, but that is not what the court enforcement blacklist system is. The travel restrictions and blacklists people talk about come from civil enforcement procedures in the courts, not from scanning someone’s phone or some universal personal “score.”
The same confusion shows up in the company data point. China has strict data and cybersecurity laws, but those are regulatory and national security frameworks. They are not the mechanism that puts someone on the judgment-defaulter list. That list exists specifically because someone ignored a legally binding court ruling, not because they refused to hand over corporate data.
And the idea that there is some nationwide app warning citizens about people with low “social credit” is another exaggeration. What actually exists are court databases of judgment defaulters, sometimes publicly searchable, similar to debtor registries in many legal systems. Again, the target is people who lost a case and then refused to comply with the ruling.
So the reality is much more mundane than the viral version. China absolutely has strong enforcement tools, but the famous travel bans people cite are mainly a judicial enforcement mechanism against people who refuse to comply with court judgments, not a universal social-credit score controlling everyone’s daily life.
You do know that social credit shit has been proven to be a lie, right?
Not an American or a liberal, and yes, china is authoritarian. Is america better? No. The credit score system in the US is also bad.
Authoritarian is a meaningless pejorative.
The social credit score isn’t real.
Re: authoritarianism— your opinion.
Some of us aren’t in favour of oppressive regimes that aren’t transparent, surveil, and censor.
“Authoritarianism” is meaningless because all it means is “uses state power.” It doesn’t acknowledge which class controls the state and who it uses state power against. In China, the working classes control the state, and use state power against bad actors and capitalists more than anything else. China is oppressive to capitalists and liberating to workers.
Tell that to the Uyghurs…
There is no genocide of Uyghurs. Uyghur genocide atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.
Quote all the bullshit you want Cowbee. The world knows the truth 🙂
“the world”
Do you have any proof? The OISC disagree with you. And even the UN doesn’t call it a genocide because that’s not what happened.
Please explain how what I said is “bullshit,” I even included the UN report. Why do you like Adrian Zenz?
I haven’t much evidence for the claim: “In China, the working classses control the state”
sure you will say that is my western bias from living with china bad propaganda, but you could actually provide something to me read on topic if possible
You can debate whether the system works well, but it isn’t accurate to say there’s no evidence for the claim that the working classes play a central role in the Chinese state.
China’s constitution explicitly defines the PRC as a socialist state “led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants,” with state power exercised through the National People’s Congress (NPC) system. The NPC is the highest organ of state power, with nearly 3,000 deputies drawn from provinces, the PLA, and different social sectors.
The makeup of the NPC is not just party bureaucrats or business elites. In the 14th NPC there are hundreds of deputies from workers and farmers and large numbers of grassroots representatives, along with 442 ethnic minority deputies covering all 55 minority groups. Most deputies in China’s people’s congress system (about 95%) serve at the county and township level, which are directly elected and involve hundreds of millions of voters. Higher congresses are elected from these lower levels. This structure is what China calls “whole-process people’s democracy.” Sources explaining the system include CGTN’s Who runs the CPC and the State Council white paper China: Democracy That Works.
You can also look at how the state treats capital. China has private capital, but it is clearly subordinated to state goals. When Jack Ma tried to push an aggressive fintech model through Ant Group that would massively expand lightly regulated consumer credit, regulators halted the IPO and forced restructuring under stricter oversight. That is a case of disciplining capital when it conflicts with social stability and the broader economy.
Likewise, China has pursued policies like eliminating extreme poverty and building massive infrastructure networks (including projects that are not monetarily profitable) because they are treated as long-term public development goals. That kind of large-scale, socially oriented investment is difficult to sustain in systems where private capital dominates the state.
So you can disagree with the Chinese model, but there is actually a large amount of Chinese material explaining how their system is supposed to function and why they claim it represents working-class political power.
Sure!
The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Moreover, the economy in the PRC is socialist, with public ownership as the principle aspect of the economy. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.
I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
The working classes in socialist countries are the ones dictating the state and its direction.
I’m using the term to refer to suppression of people (which isn’t restricted to workers) in politics, media, etc.
Except by “the people” you seem to mean capitalists and fascists, not the broad majority of society that are uplifted and support the system.
This!
Still better then the baby eating pedo elite
It is possible to oppose all three things. It is possible to simultaneously oppose the Social Credit System in China, the Credit Score system in the United States, and the elites connected to Jeffrey Epstein.
The social credit system that you know of doesn’t exist.
I am a Chinese minority living in China. You really don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to China. You very clearly have done 0 research beyond maybe reading RFA. You should be quiet until you have done some proper research.
Ad hominem, ad hominem, and mmm, ad hominem. Yeah, nothing to see here.
“Homnum Homnum”- Liberal chimps.
It isn’t an ad hominem fallacy to point out that doing little research on a topic and repeating easily disproven talking points isn’t a sound basis of argument.
And I have, and my responses were given little in return from them.
You have not, considering everything you’ve said has been easily debunked, and when encountering hard numbers you reflect to dogmatism.
Not an adhominem. You’re not wrong because you’re stupid you just happen to be both wrong and stupid.
Well in the comment I said that you didn’t explain why I was wrong and simply resorted to making a string of ad hominems.
So I’ll reiterate: ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem.
Saying you should shut up if you haven’t researched a topic isn’t an adhominem.
Reminds me of the anime PsychoPass.
Im gonna say it, I’m sick and tired of hearing people talk about “evil Chinese authoritarian social credit system” when its inherently a good system that works. In the west when a corporation commits mass fraud and abuse they pay a minimal fine (sometimes they don’t even pay) and then they literally just get away with it. Chinas social credit system on the other hand actually holds businesses accountable.
I’m willing to say I’m not happy with either system. Corporations should pay and be held accountable but citizens should have a right to privacy and not have the sum of their actions turned into a number.
Yeah the made up system that doesn’t exist in the real world is really fucking scary OMG.
citizens should have a right to privacy and not have the sum of their actions turned into a number.
That “number” isn’t real. China does not have a single nationwide “social credit score” that rates every citizen.
What actually exists is a set of legal blacklists, the most famous being the court judgment defaulter list (失信被执行人). It applies to people who refuse to comply with a court decision, usually things like unpaid debts.
If you ignore a court order, the court can place you under a high-consumption restriction (限制高消费). That means you can’t spend money on certain luxury services (first-class train tickets, flights, five-star hotels, or other high-end purchases) until you comply with the judgment.
You can still travel normally, stay in regular hotels, work, shop, and live your life. The restriction is specifically designed to stop people who refuse to obey court rulings from enjoying luxury spending while ignoring their legal obligations.
The popular idea in the west that everyone in China has a constantly changing personal “score” based on everyday behavior is simply western fantasy.
There is no social credit system
When will Westerners realize that the common characture of the brainwashed, thought controlled, information controlled, constantly surveiled citizen that we attribute to China/The USSR/etc… IS US?! You clutch your pearls at people in other countries potentially being treated like that but are inclined to do nothing about OUR OWN countries treating US like that.
You can be against US and Chinese fascism simultaneously.
In what way is China fascist? It’s a socialist country, public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state.
Authoritarianism, violent oppression of minorites and dissenting movements, deeply ingrained surveillance state with state censorship.
China does not violently oppress minorities, and wielding state authority, censorship, and surveilance against capitalists and fascists is necessary for a socialist state, and doesn’t make it fascist. Fascism is capitalism violently defending itself from decay and solidifying bourgeois control, not proletarian.
Surveillance and political suppression for one. Media, journalism, etc.
That’s not what fascism means, especially when these are used against capitalists most of all, and not against the working classes nearly as much. Fascism is capitalism violently entrenching itself when it finds itself in crisis, it isn’t when a socialist state uses state power to keep capitalists under control and expropriate their property.
I’m not trying to fuss over what to call something. My intended point stands.
It doesn’t, though. Socialism is not fascism, and all socialist states need to exert authority against capitalists and fascists to continue to exist. Class harmony is a lie.
My point is that the forms of oppression that occur in China aren’t exclusive to the capitalist class, and remain something I oppose.
Which stands.
Chinese fascism
Just say you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Nice argument.
You didn’t make one you just stated something wildly incorrect so why should I take the time to give you a well thought out response trying to explain how truly idiotic is?
I did make one, that you can oppose two things at the same time.
I could explain, but wait, you already said that authoritarianism was meaningless to you. If it doesn’t matter to you, well, seems pointless to try to convince that it is actually fascist.
You have to be a troll.
You can appose 2 things
Sure not what I took issue with. I took issue with you calling China fascist which is just an untrue statement.
Authoritarian is a pejorative. All countries and states in class society are “authoritarian” by necessity. Fascism is a specific thing arising from the tendency for the rate of profit to decline in capitalist society.
You can keep insisting I’m a troll if it helps you deal with not being able to engage with arguments.
China is authoritarian, but authoritarianism doesn’t matter to you, so that shouldn’t matter to you. Consistency, please.
And no, countries aren’t “authoritarian” by necessity. Even if some amount of policies etc that would be considered such exist everywhere, you have countries that are freer and countries that have more political suppression, censorship of media outlets, etc etc.
China does censor it’s media—political and entertainment— heavily. Just one small example.
A Russian is on an airliner heading to the US, and the American in the seat next to him asks, “So what brings you to the US?” The Russian replies, “I’m studying the American approach to propaganda.” The American says, “What propaganda?” The Russian says, “That’s what I mean.”
Snowden showed they realized but didn’t care
and the epstien files have shown us how little americans care about anything besides themselves.
Per Wikipedia:
The program first emerged in the early 2000s, inspired by the credit scoring systems in other countries.
It’s almost the same thing but a different name, and is nationalized to a state system instead of like 3 or 4 companies lmao
Right wingers fear the word “social” for some reason ig
It’s also not applied at a national level, but in some areas, from what I’ve read, and is used largely against companies that try to skirt the law.
I mean, that’s also pretty awesome that there’s decent regulations as part of it(at least nominally, I don’t live there so can’t say for certain), but it seems to be primarily a banking/lending thing similar to in the US which is what a lot of jingoistic fearmongering types either completely miss or purposely ignore.
It’s decidedly not a surveillance thing, which is the funny part.
The Misconceptions section of that page is really funny. It just keeps on going with the same thing over and over but with different people and dates, it feels like a bit
Some gringo in the comments: “Something something Uyghurs, something something mass surveillance, winnie poo”
The only muslim people they suddenly “pretend” to care about because their media hides the fact that they are muslim.
Muslims everywhere else are fair game.
Something something
Tibetan monk sentenced to six years in prison for teaching Tibetan language
https://phayul.com/tibetan-monk-sentenced-to-six-years-in-prison-for-teaching-tibetan-language/
Lmao, Tibetan is literally taught in schools in Tibet and is the official language of Tibet Autonomous Region. These obscure propaganda articles hiding the Truth are hilarious! 😂
Liberals and real actual gaza genocide: 🥱
Liberals and fake Uyghur genocide: Real shit
“fake” Uyghur genocide, wow.
It is? Their is no evidence. It’s a fabrication invented by a German evangelical on a self proclaimed “mission from god” to destroy communism.
No, it isnt. We have geographic evidence as well as countless testimonies of the Uyghur people.
For some reason when it comes to China/Uyghur muslims, people have no issue dismissing their genocide and thinking it’s okay.
There is no genocide of Uyghurs. Uyghur genocide atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.
I was in Urumqi recently enough and I can tell you this they are some of the most pro government people I have ever talked with lmao they love that ETIM was kicked out.
You have gusano testimony from the likes of Rushan Abbas (Guantanamo bay torturer) It’s not real.
Also tell me about this geographic evidence? Pictures of prisons that you decided are camps because we’re evil scary Chinese people?
I never said “you’re evil scary Chinese people”. The Chinese state however, is another story (authoritarian— but I know you’re apathetic towards authoritarianism). I realize now that this may be evoking some sort of nationalistic reaction out of you, though.
I didn’t “decide”— like I said, independent journalists and satellite imaging. And no, it’s not reducible to “Western evil scary propaganda” like you’re making it out to be.
The Chinese state that has 95+% support from the population and is made up of a representative of Chinese people.
White people decided we’re evil and you just go along with it without any investigation because you’re racist and it confirms your biases
All of the ID verification, posing as age verification, legislation is for better thought monitoring of social credit too.
Yea, China monitors a billion people in their country and assigns them a score if a citizen walks on the sidewalk correctly /s
assigns them a score if a citizen walks on the sidewalk correctly
Funny story about Jaywalking
The automobile lobby in the US took up the cause of labeling and scorning jaywalkers in the 1910s and early 1920s. In 1912, for instance, Popular Mechanics magazine reported that the term was current in Kansas City: “The city pedestrian who cares not for traffic regulations at street corners, but strays all over the street, crossing in the middle of the block, or attempting to save time by choosing a diagonal route across a street intersection instead of adhering to the regular crossing, is designated as a ‘jay walker,’ in Kansas City.”
In 1915, when New York City’s police commissioner Arthur Woods sought to apply the word “jaywalker” to anyone who crossed the street at mid-block, the New York Times protested, calling it “highly opprobrious” and “a truly shocking name.”
Originally in the US, the legal rule was that “all persons have an equal right in the highway, and that in exercising the right each shall take due care not to injure other users of the way”. In time, however, streets became the province of vehicular traffic, both practically and legally.
Anyway, enjoy your hyper-criminalized car culture hellscape while making spooky fingers about Evil Foreign Country.
Yea, China monitors a billion people in their country
Correct, and those abroad too.
I know this because a US government-funded “independent” think tank told me so.
You know the stories of secret overseas Chinese police stations were fake news, right?
I was hoping this had been debunked, any (non-CCP affiliated) sources for this?
Inb4 they drop the zionist media bias fact “checker” link 😂
Anything that deals more directly with the issue than the past of the founder of one associated organization? “One of the guys saying it is bad, so it isn’t true” doesn’t work well on the people I argue with.
It’s very hard to prove a negative, especially to people who want to believe, thanks to over a century of anticommunist propaganda. The burden of proof ought to be on those making claims of secret foreign police stations on their soil, an extraordinary claim. All those articles are trash and have no real evidence. And they don’t need any, because almost no Westerners demand any, because the narrative aligns with their preconception of communist states as cartoonishly evil.
It was my understanding that the existence of police stations in foreign countries is not debated, they have them. The allegation that they are used for repressive purposes beyond their stated aim of providing administrative services to citizens living abroad is what is controversial. It really seems like, when you cut all the baggage away, all we have is testimonials from expats claiming harassment and assurances from the MFA that it never happened, so I struggle to land firmly on one side of belief considering both parties have historically been loose with the truth.
Experian, TransUnion, and Equifax are awful entities that I never consented to share my personal financial data with. But one wrong doesn’t justify another. Personally I think a score by private data brokers to judge creditworthiness is less harm than a score by your government to judge social worthiness but both are harm.
The idea of a social worthiness score doesn’t exist in China, though. They have a system largely for penalizing corporations and businesses that are caught skirting regulations, and a limited system for catching those who commit tax fraud and other crimes.
They have a system largely for penalizing corporations and businesses that are caught skirting regulations
The core mechanism is the court “judgment defaulter” blacklist (失信被执行人) and related high-consumption restrictions (限制高消费), which are imposed when someone refuses to comply with a legally effective court judgment, such as paying a debt or damages ordered by the court. The penalty mainly restricts luxury or non-essential spending (flights, first-class train seats, luxury hotels, tourism, etc.) until the judgment is fulfilled. In law it applies to any individual or company, and if a company is the debtor the restrictions can extend to its legal representative or responsible managers on top of any accounts registered to the company. In practice 99.99% of cases involve businesses because most court enforcement actions arise from commercial disputes (contracts, loans, wages, suppliers, etc.), so the mechanism ends up being an enforcement mechanism against business owners and managers to push them to settle judgments properly, but legally it’s just a court enforcement tool against anyone who refuses to comply with a court ruling.
Ah, gotcha, thanks for the clarification!
How do you make businesses (i.e. the corporations) unable to access luxury? Sounds like an individual-level policy being applied to the organization.
It’s applied to bank accounts. If you owe a debt ordered by the court (99.99% businesses) you can’t use your business accounts to buy luxuries, it is often also applied to the individual owner/management of the company as well so they can neither use personal or business accounts to live a life of luxury while owing debts to people.
Both are bad???
Exactly my thoughts. People just mass downvote into oblivion, no reasoning provided.
Reasoning has been provided all over this thread, including by users from instances you cannot see because Lemmy.world censored them from your view.
Yeah, and the Big Bad Wolf is bad, but it’s also a western fairy tale.
Did this meme argue that social credit score doesn’t exist? Or is it whataboutism that argues that you can’t criticize the social credit system (real or not) because America has a credit score system. My point is, you can be against BOTH. That is all I’m saying here
No, you can’t criticize the Chinese social credit score, because it doesn’t exist.
And it’s not “whataboutism” to tell westerners to stop trying to “fix” other countries while living in a world ruled by pedophile billionaires and pretending they have “freedom”.
Your “solution” to everything is to invade, kill a bunch of innocent people, and install a worse, unelected government. So stop trying to analyze problems with other countries, real or fake. (In this case very fake)
When did I mention invading places? Apparently I’m the embodiment of America itself? God I wish because all I’d have to do is kill myself
No, you are a part of something much bigger than yourself. Again, I’m addressing you as a western liberal. If any part of that is wrong, feel free to correct me. But if you are using the term “whataboutism” and crying about policies in China that you have admitted you have no idea about, then you are pushing western liberal ideals, and are a part of the same problem. Also, I did not mention America at all. If you think what I’m talking about is limited to America, I don’t know. You need to read more.
The criticism is that westerners believe in something that both doesn’t exist (the popular “social credit” myth) and also is much closer to existing where they live.
one of them doesn’t even fucking exist
Sure, let’s say it doesn’t since I admittedly haven’t looked into this in painful detail. However, this meme seems to suggest that if it did exist, then it would be perfectly fine on the virtue that credit scores exist in America. Aka, whataboutism.
Since Germany made concentration camps under the third reich that it isn’t that bad when America does it. At least by this logic. Guess it’s impossible to be against two things at once. Though I hope I’m just misinterpreting the point
The meme is pointing out hypocrisy among those in America. Its common to hear them mock China for having a social credit score system, while apparently not realizing they have exactly that with credit monitoring companies.
This is all made more ridiculous by the fact that there is no social credit score in China as Americans understand it.
The joke is that Americans brag and call everyone else barbarians, when they themselves are the barbarians. Its pure projection to inflate the massive American ego.
I admittedly haven’t looked into this in painful detail.
You can stop right there and try shutting the fuck up then until you do lmao
You didn’t read the rest of the comment since I conceded that it doesn’t exist for that reason and why I still disagree with the meme
And you haven’t read anything about China’s so-called social credit system yet here you are engaging in debate perversion.
I’m not comparing the systems or saying it’s better, but you don’t need a credit rating to get a mortgage on a home in the US and are doing yourself a disservice repeating that talking point.
If you don’t have a credit rating they’ll ask for other evidences you are able to pay off a 15-30 year loan like consistent and not missing payments on a phone, rent, utilities, internet, etc steady employment, bigger down payment. it’s called manual underwriting or a non traditional mortgage application.
Have fun with the interest rate you’ll get. You’ll inherently be a higher risk than someone with a good credit score.
It’s much more difficult to secure a mortgage that way and you will be paying exploitive interest rates. It’s like saying offering up collateral or buying a house outright is path to home ownership- something the vast majority of homebuyers can not do.
Most people that don’t have a credit rating don’t have the secondary information they’ll ask for to do the manual underwriting process, and it seems nobody publishes direct data sets on no credit rating loans, but I did find some estimates at around 0.5-2% that’s still thousands of mortgages a year but not really significant amount overall.
I thought it was closer to 8-10% but that was bullshit after looking into it more to get the numbers above, and if it’s only 2% then I’ll rescind the original statement & stand corrected, that’s for any practical measure a requirement.
Man, what world you live in?
Not to minimize how fucked the US is, but this is true to some degree. There’s a lot of ways to get a mortgage with lower credit, with or without federal and state grants. Most people could probably get approved for a mortgage.
Now, getting approved for a mortgage that’s large enough to afford anything near your work is a bigger question. But if you can afford to live in a cheaper area and have consistent income, it’s worth checking to see if escaping the rent trap is a possibility.
If you treat your credit card like your debit card, you can get 3% off literally everything. As long as you don’t spend more than you make, you’ll never owe interest.
I have enough credit, I can by a whole car with the swipe of a card. I’ll never have to wonder about underwriting or proving myself. I’ve already done so to my bank. And if I ever decide to do that, I’ll have zero down and zero interest for 6 months.
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“propaganda”
Yeah, I guess thats what you’ve been conditioned to spout when encountering non-empire-sanctioned news sources ha ha!
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Silly, this is .ml for marxists. We’re all pro-China, Russia, and even gasp pro-DPRK because we don’t shun from news sources that havent been deemed worthy by the empire
I never understood how being a marxist has anything to do with being pro-putin, who is obviously the exact opposite of a marxist.
You’re conflating Marxist methodology with liberal moralism. Marxists do not offer abstract “pro/anti” judgments based on a regime’s ideology, but analyze states through their structural position in the global system. Contemporary Russia is indeed an oligarchic capitalist state, but its integration into global capitalism is asymmetric and subordinate. Its economy remains heavily dependent on raw material exports rather than high-value capital export, and it lacks the core instruments of modern imperialism: dominance over global financial institutions, reserve currency status, and the ability to enforce structural adjustment. Unlike the U.S., Russia cannot print the world’s reserve currency to finance overseas expansion or weaponize SWIFT-level financial infrastructure against rivals.
This material reality limits Russia’s capacity for classic imperialist expansion as Lenin defined it, namely, the dominance of finance capital and the export of capital as the primary mechanism of exploitation. Russia’s capital accumulation model, centered on resource rents and regional security projection, does not replicate this. It lacks the deep financial markets, technological monopoly rents, and institutional leverage that allow core imperial powers to extract surplus globally through “peaceful”(generally far from peaceful in reality) and economic means. Its military actions, therefore, function more as defensive geopolitics or regional balancing than as instruments of systematic capital expansion.
Precisely because Russia cannot compete with entrenched imperial powers on their terms, its rational strategy is to undermine unipolarity. Supporting multipolar institutions like BRICS and the SCO, opposing NATO expansion, and backing states resisting U.S. pressure are not expressions of socialist solidarity, but materially rational moves for a subordinate capitalist power seeking strategic autonomy. The objective effect (fragmenting U.S. hegemonic control) creates space for anti-imperialist struggles globally, regardless of Putin’s subjective intentions.
Our support is therefore entirely critical and conditional. We recognize that Russia’s structural position leads it, out of self-interest, to back anti-imperialist struggles, and we support those objective anti-hegemonic actions because they weaken the primary engine of global imperialist exploitation. Simultaneously, we oppose its internal reactionary politics, oligarchic structure, and any chauvinist or expansionist tactics that harm working-class solidarity. This is not a logical contradiction, it is dialectical materialism: judging policies by their concrete role in the global class struggle, not by the ideological labels of leaders. Reducing this analysis to “pro-Putin” ignores Marxism’s core method: follow the motion of material forces, not the slogans of statesmen.
Marxists are certainly critical of Putin and the Russian Federation, and see it as an incredible fall from their proud and progressive soviet past. However, the biggest obstacle to socialism globally is the US Empire, and Russia is presently playing a progressive international role in undermining it, and being a valuable trading partner for countries like China, Venezuela, the DPRK, etc. Further, the biggest opposition faction to the nationalists are the communists, not the liberals, so in time it is likely they will return to socialism.
This deep into the Gaza genocide, anyone with two neurons to spark together hates liberals. Smug, conspiratorial fascists-in-denial who will spend decades helping to strangle you, then criticize the way you breathe.
If you’re pro Russia, you’re pro-genocide.
Pure projection
1- Provided with reasoning/analogy 2- “Projection”.
Smh.
“Reasoning” lol try harder halfwit
We call that an ad hominem, sire.
I am begging you to please read a book.
An ad hominem is when an argument consists of a personal attack, this is just a personal attack dumbass, you never presented an argument worth rebutting, go back to reddit
I’m well aware of the USA’s complicity in genocide. You seem to be unaware of Russia’s.
It’s really bizarre to be against genocide and unabashedly pro-Russia while spreading their insane genocidal propaganda.
I think you don’t really care about genocide, I think you’d rather just see more of it from the Republican Party because you’re a paid Russian asset.
Like I said to your partner in crime, I wish you the best in avoiding conscription into your own country’s genocide by sucking Putin’s cock. 👋
I’m aware of liberals throwing the word genocide around in regard to shit that is demonstrably not genocide, and accusing everyone who disagrees of being a bot or a paid enemy agent. This is also projection, you are a morally bankrupt lackey of a dying empire and you are losing and you are coping poorly with it.
I wouldn’t make said accusations—and I’m not a liberal— but Russia is involved in genocide.
You did, you are, and no lol
Yeah, supporting the country whose fighting the empire, rooting out nazis, and stopping a genocide is being “for genocide”. Do you libs ever question your sources or what??
.world user
makes sense, thats probably a no then?
Russia rooting out nazis. Fighting the empire? Wild.
Putin IS a nazi. Russia IS an imperialist regime. Are we not going to talk about Russia’s imperialist attacks? Is that all chill? The attacks on Ukraine are equivalent to genocide historically.
Simply because Russia is anti-US, doesn’t make it free of guilt for much of the same actions the US takes.
You should stop trivialising the word genocide.
Trivializing? They have literal concentration camps for Uyghurs. You know, the things used for the Jewish genocide/holocaust by Hitler.
Stop defending china and call it out for its unethical actions.
There are no concentration camps? There were prisons where terrorists were rehabilitated and vocational schools. Neither of these are concentration camps. When was the last time you were in Xinjiang? Uyghur is widely spoken and all signs are in Uyghur and Chinese. There were some abuses during the crackdown on ETIM and that was bad but that has already been corrected and abuses are not genocide you should stop trivialising the word genocide.
It’s like saying, “Invading Iran is okay because their state is bad.” It’s not okay - look at how much suffering it causes. And for what? Simply replacing one oligarchy with another.
Yea Russia is really rooting out those Nazis in Ukraine lol, maybe if you simp for Putin harder you won’t get conscripted into the meat grinder. Best of luck to you in your crusade to end genocide by spreading Russian propaganda. 👋
Yea Russia is really rooting out those Nazis in Ukraine lol,
I know liberals struggle with this concept, but saying true things sarcastically actually does not make them less true
*pro Trolley Problem
Fixed.
Cope
One of us may not be coping very well.
Cope
Some folks need to hear the same thing 50 times before they fuck off
